THE RESULTS ARE IN...AND THERE ARE NO WINNERS

This Old Troll's Pop Quiz of April 2nd produced some good answers, so I thought I would put them together and share them with you. Responses are in chronological order, my little tip of the hat to the Early Responders...


Nate: Away for five days and so many, many posts in my head, but this questionnaire of Troll’s seems to get to much of it. The basis of my thoughts are that after 100 days of posting and wrestling, whining and back pedaling, my heart has caught up to my head. I started my blog with a very simple premise – a married bi-sexual male. Really not much more to it. I, as anyone reading realizes, did not believe this premise emotionally – I was still the straight guy who happens to like giving blow jobs… After 100 days, for reasons I cannot fully explain, have come to accept that I am a full blown bi-sexual. I am attracted to both sexes and have a real weakness for homoerotic fantasies and encounters with other men.
I also believe that had my life been different, maybe the gay side would have been more apparent and maybe I would have had relationships (as opposed to encounters). As it turned out after what I refer to as two and a half marriages (I consider living with a woman for seven years to be the half), I am with my “soulmate” (hate the word, but it works) and have been able to lead an amazing open life. So with too much introduction and the knowledge that I consider myself bi – a concurrent bisexual as the multidimensional scale decided, or a sexually charged slut as I would term myself - here are my meager answers.

OK, here are the $64,000 questions:

How many of you still want to stay married?
Bigg: I would stay married, provided I found a way to balance my own needs against the needs of my wife and children.
Troll: Well, that about says it, doesn't it? and: Yes. Me, too.
Drew: Yes. I love my wife and my family. We compliment each other in so many ways. We are also similar in so many ways – including our attraction to guys. Hence, the problem. I know staying married will involve compromise on both our parts. We are just not sure at this point what types of compromises we are ready to make.
WOE: If you asked me this eight months ago I would have said yes. Staying together seemed to be the right way to go and at the time felt like it would be the path of least destruction. My wife did not know I was gay when we got married. I was in denial and could not concieve that I was gay. The kids did not ask for their daddy to go and screw things up by coming out as gay. My divorce is on the basis of my wife who chose to go off and have and affair. I tried to deal with the affair. I could not deal with the lies and the inclusion of my children in it. I doubt I would have acted out if I had not reached a point of no return in my marriage.
Nate: I want to stay married. I love my wife and family and am happy with my life with them. I fear loneliness and giving up what I have and like for some unknown that I do not even fully understand.
Flip: I do.


How many of you have given up or would give up sex with men to stay married?

Bigg: I have not had sex with anyone but my wife during our entire marriage.
Troll: Yes. Me, too.
Drew: This is a tough one for me to answer given my virtually non-existent experience with men. I believe that I will first have to experience it before I can decide whether I can/will/should give it up. [This next part is new based on some comments I received] When the time comes, however, my wife will know about it. While this doesn't mean I will have her blessing (which I doubt I will ever have), it also doesn't mean I will sleep around behind her back.
WOE: Eight Months ago yes I would have. Now No.
Nate: This is a trick question to me because it ignores the underlying problem in my relationship. In the past I have given up sex with men and suspect I could do it again. What I could not give up are my homoerotic fantasies, that third person in our bed my wife refers to. This becomes an issue as we try to find a middle ground in the bedroom that recognizes my physical desires while having it be only two of us in the bed. I suppose simply put I can give up actions (the psychic price to be determined) but I cannot change the hard wired person I am.
Flip: I am trying, obviously without complete success. My most recent slip occurred after 87 “clean” days during which I rarely, if ever, thought about straying. Recently I am learning a lot from reading Life Ajar and Defending the Raven about the importance of trying to communicate more openly with my wife about my sexual needs rather than compartmentalizing them.

How many of you think you can come out and stay married? How many of your wives can bear remaining in relationship with you once you come out?

Bigg: My wife knew who and what I was when we got together -- but she chose not to believe that it was necessarily a problem. I think that we could both learn to live with the elephant in the room, if only we could come to agree on what it means...
Troll: Yes. Us, too.
Drew: Yes and (I think) yes. However, there are not a lot of role models of successful mixed oriented marriages. There are some, but not many. I also believe there is also a lot of “pressure” from both the straight spouse community and formerly-married but gay community that separation is inevitable and necessary for both spouses to find true contentment and happiness. While I’m sure there is a good reason for all of these people to feel that way, my wife and I believe that our marriage is important enough to us that we have to at least try to make it work before we make any decisions about our next steps.
WOE: I think it is possible. It seems like a hard road for both the man and his wife though and I am not convinced it makes sense. Could my wife bear me coming out. Hell no. She would have dropped me on day 1 of a hetero affair, coming out as gay would have the same effect.
Nate: Finally an easy one, thank god. I have come out and believe we will stay married. I have the advantage of having my fantasies known before we were married. So while there is a huge difference between having some fantasies on the table as opposed to being openly bi/gay in orientation it is still a lot easier than starting the conversation from scratch.
Flip: I came out before I was married. Within the past two years I came out to close family and friends. My wife continues to be willing to stay married.

How many of you have given up or would give up your marriages to be free as gay men?

Bigg: I am teetering on the brink of that decision -- it's not that I want to give up my marriage to be free to be with men -- rather, to be free to be myself.
Troll: Yes. Oh my God, yes.
Drew: At this point, no. I am trying to figure out to figure out how to live as a gay man in a straight marriage.
WOE: I would not give my marriage up to be free as a gay man. I will give it up to live a life that will hold more integrity for myself primarily and then for my wife.
Nate: I would not give up my marriage. My prison is not a marriage to someone who knows everything about me and still loves me; my prison is living a life of denial to even those closest to me. My wife and I (these are joint decisions to us) spend hours discussing telling one of my sisters – what happens when she tells the next person… (I thought this was another easy one, but issues of freedom never are.)
Flip: I tried to give it up a couple of years ago. Now I am trying not to.

How many of you think you can have your cake and eat it too? [That seems to me to be an attractive but essentially impossible proposition, but what do I know?]

Bigg: My wife seems to think that having our cake and eating it too will be easy. I have extreme doubts. When can I collect my $64,000?
Troll: I would also like to stay married, but need to be able to be completely open about WHAT I am with people, always remembering that I have no intention of telling anyone more than they want to hear, if I am going to stay. And there is part of me that can't bear the thought of NEVER KNOWING if loving a man isn't a thing I was simply born to do -- as Sean said, it really isn't about sex at all [the single most hurtful thing I think I have said to my wife yet, by the way.] But I have offered to remain totally committed in return for honesty and openness, and I don't think that she can live with that. That hurts me in turn. Ah well. You will get your $64,000 as soon as I can print it and get an address...
Thanks so much for replying. It really helps.
Drew: I want to believe that I can have my cake and eat it too. Whether I actually believe it, that’s another story.
WOE: I don't think it is possible.
Nate: If I ate a piece of cake for every time KA and I have discussed this specific question over the past three months, I would be so rotund that no self respecting man or woman would be seen with me, solving everything I suppose. It is the essential question.
Ultimately I do not believe one can have their cake and eat it. Currently it is accepted in our home that I will continue to explore. The issue for Chicago (I am already sick of talking about it) is not whether I will attempt to have sex with a man: it is only a matter of going about it and trying to have something one step above anonymous.
I think it is even accepted that after some period of exploration while I will try to be good, I will ultimately have my failures. But the concept that I will find a boyfriend and have an ongoing relationship would be even more than my exceedingly understanding wife would accept and frankly more than I could ask her to accept and still look at myself in the mirror...
Flip: I thought I could. I still wish I could, but so far I have not found a way to do it and achieve my other ideals.

I know that some of us married knowing we "had been" gay; others of us have discovered that they were gay without acting on it. I think that it is fair to say that what we ALL have in common is that the resolution of the issue is going to involve a great deal of suffering on someone's part; who suffers, and who decides who suffers? I am only now beginning to take on board the magnitude of what I am talking about.

Drew: I believe that, at least initially, everyone who is involved suffers in varying degrees. At first, the suffering was all me with my struggle to accept (or at least acknowledge) that I am gay/bi. Then I struggled as to whether to act on those feelings. Then I struggled about whether I should tell my wife. At this point, I thought my options were pretty much lose-lose. If I didn’t tell her, I’d be forced to lead a ‘double” life – that of a straight married man, and that of a closeted, gay married man. Once I did tell her, that’s when her suffering began. And suffer she did. With that one sentence (“Honey, I’m gay”) her entire world was shook-up. The foundation of her relationship with me crumbled. Her expectation that her marriage to me was a life-long commitment was now in jeopardy, if not completely evaporated. I could probably go one on this point, but I think ‘nuff said. As for the kids, I haven’t told mine yet. From what I’ve read, the kids’ suffering isn’t usually related to their parent’s sexual orientation. It is generally related to being the kids of separated/divorced parents. As for who decides who suffers, I believe initially it’s the gay married man. Will he suffer alone? Or will he tell his wife and invite her to share in his misery (a little dramatic, I know but I true)? After disclosure, I believe each person become responsible for their own happiness or suffering.
WOE: I think the suffering is pretty well spread around. I suspect it will take years for any of us to fully get our heads around this and really recognise how far reaching and big this can be. I don't believe there is a road without suffering in this.
Nate: Everyone suffers because you cannot have the cake and eat it. My “suffering” is accepting that due to fear and paralysis, I did not explore my gay side when I was thirty years younger. Add it to the list of life’s regrets. As a side note I have recently discovered Dolly Parton’s original version of I Will Always Love You. It is the song our wives would sing us if they were to leave and it drips with suffering.. Seems like a very "gay" thing to admit, but it has reduced me to tears more than once.
Flip: There does not seem to be a perfect resolution to this issue. Complicated issues require decisions and compromise. The fact of our queerness and marriedness makes this issue seem uniquely complicated, but one of the many things I'm learning from reading The Truth About Tom is that we have much more in common with straight men than we often care to admit. Perhaps if we back up and view our dilemma as a variation on an “evolving relationship / stage of life” issue that would help.

I am also beginning to get the awful feeling that I am the only person out here on this electronic plain who is not at all sure gaining his freedom is worth losing his family; things are a little complicated in my case because I don't even know whether I could be happy living as a gay man, free or otherwise, which makes the thought of jeopardizing what I have seem a lot less appealing, if not pointless.

Drew: I don’t agree with this premise. This journey for me is not about me breaking free from my “straight” life or my responsibilities as a husband, parent or member of the community. It is about me feeling comfortable with, and accepting of, who I am. Once I told my wife, a piece of my marriage was lost – a piece that I will never get back even if my wife and I stay together. However, I don’t believe (or maybe just can’t believe) that I will lose my family over this issue. Maybe I’ll lose my house, my car, and even some friends, but not my family. I will always be my children’s father and be involved in their lives. And my wife and I, because we have children, will always be in each others lives (whether we like it or not). Her family will always be the grandparents, uncles, aunts, counsins, etc of my children, and likewise for my family. And that’s my two cents.

WOE: Actually I agree with you it may not be worth it. I think it will depend on each individuals relationship and experience. Everyones milage will vary here I think. Key here in your question is can you be happy living as a gay man free or otherwise. I feel for you on this because it's not something you can really do on a trial basis without wrecking what you already have.

Nate: You are not alone in this one. It is a common theme for many of us. I started writing a fancy response, but sometimes the right answer is Yes. You have spoken for me in the phrasing of your question.

Flip: You are most certainly not alone in questioning the family/freedom trade-off. Perhaps your "electronic plain" perception may have something to do with the limitations of human beings trying to express very fluid, complicated and contradictory feelings in written form.

Did I leave anyone out? Let me know if you have posted or even seen answers somewhere I can add. And to the rest of you out there, the same holds true:

But I would welcome all your comments, from wherever you are on the spectrum. If you have already posted your thoughts on the subject, send me a link. No judgments, no preconceptions -- I really just want to know where you are.